A Teachable Moment for a Celebrity

by GK on June 28, 2011 · 22 comments

Does game really matter? I’ve seen it debated, most recently in the comments section of my post on looking for women’s interest. Heck, even I’ve contradicted myself — on one hand I talk about how technique is overrated and often irrelevant, and yet, um, have you noticed the name of this blog?

My buddy Tre Tre represented my thoughts perfectly in those comments. And I’m turning to him yet again, because he had a jaw-dropping experience over the weekend that demonstrates our point further. Game doesn’t matter in my life anymore, or in his. But it does matter when you’re repeating the same social mistakes. Even when you’re famous and rich.

I can’t help but feel a little “Revenge of the Nerds” vindication from this, but I’m not repeating this story to make fun of the guy involved. And I am not TMZ — I will name no names here. I’m into teaching lessons, and in this case, Tre Tre is the teacher. He spent 10 minutes helping a famous athlete understand why he failed to get a beautiful woman’s phone number — a number Tre Tre had succeeded in getting.

It all went down at a bar in the Marina, and if you’ve read my blog you know I consider that neighborhood a cesspool of frat-boy superficiality. Tre Tre was there for a birthday party — the woman of honor was the sister of his friend’s girlfriend, and he’d met her before but didn’t know her well. He assures me that she’s so smoking hot, she could  power a small city. In addition, she’s down to earth and a woman of substance.

Nerds 1, Jocks 0

 Jocks rule the Marina, and they pick up many a woman there. So it’s no surprise that two well-known pro athletes were prowling this bar, and when one of them spotted the birthday girl, he zoomed in on her like Google Earth.

The athlete did what has probably worked on other women countless times — he offered to take her away from her group and buy her a drink. When you’re tall, famous and making millions of dollars a year, that’s often all it takes, especially in a place like the Marina. 

But the birthday girl politely refused — she was with friends and family, including her parents, and she wanted to spend her time with them. I should point out that she doesn’t follow sports and had no idea who this athlete was. When her group told her who he was, she didn’t care.

There were other girls in the bar showing this athlete some interest, but he was undeterred. He approached the birthday girl’s table and tried forcing his way next to her.  One of two guys at the table (Tre Tre being the other) confronted the athlete and told him that she meant what she said — she wanted to spend her time with her party. But as long as she didn’t complain, he could sit with them.

The birthday girl didn’t make a fuss, and the athlete offered to buy a round of drinks for the entire table (about half accepted).  He then tried having a one-way conversation with her that wasn’t going anywhere, and the others in the party — some of whom were his fans and female — were getting annoyed.

At one point the athlete told the birthday girl that it seemed the group didn’t didn’t like him; her response was that they didn’t even have a thought in their mind about him, but they cared about her and cared if she was having fun.

After desperately hanging around her some more, the athlete made a futile attempt to close the deal by making this grand romantic gesture: “Are you DTF?” If you don’t know what that means, you clearly haven’t watched “Jersey Shore.” Here’s a definition. I remind you, her dad was right there.

I’d like to say the birthday girl threw her drink in his face. But instead she just said, “No thanks.” And the athlete finally walked away. And by walked away, I mean getting up from the booth, walking over the table and into the aisle.  Not a graceful way of handling “no.” 

Later, Tre Tre got into conversation with the girl, and they flirted for about 15 minutes. She told him she heard he had broken up with his girlfriend, and he confirmed that. He asked for her number, and he got it.

When that was done and Tre Tre was walking through the crowd, he got a tap on the shoulder. He turned around and looked up, and returning his gaze was none other than the athlete.

Humbled by his trainwreck of a pickup attempt, the athlete asked Tre Tre — who generously stands at 5-foot-9 — how he was able to get that woman’s number (of course it helped that he was in her party). When Tre Tre got the athlete’s permission to be frank, he obliged, and they went down the list: 

  • He didn’t listen to her. The athlete tried strong-arming the girl away from her party even after she told him why she was there.
  • He didn’t take a genuine interest in her and it was obvious he saw her only as a conquest.
  • He tried using his status to impress the girl rather than connect with her.
  • He either insulted or ignored her friends and family to the point that they hated him.
  • And oh yeah, he made that DTF remark.

Maybe the athlete saw his own mortality, and he knew there would come a time when fame or money alone wouldn’t be enough to attract a high-quality woman. But I hope he learned from the experience. I’ll be happy to coach him in exchange for some front-row seats.

{ 22 comments }

1 Alfonso L June 28, 2011 at 5:54 pm

Great post GK this one made me laugh, specially the DTF part. I envy your friend Tre-Tre it would be nice to give one of those celebrities a lesson 😉
On a more serious note I think you’re right techniques are pretty much training wheels after a while not only they don’t matter they seem limiting I can see how right you are when you said all this comes down to being yourself and the big four are just a way to get there.
Your blog is great as always, down to earth and honest I never get tired of reading it.

2 Sal June 28, 2011 at 6:37 pm

I’m curious how old the girl was. Would you say there’s differences in the way a hot 22 year old reacts to a celeb (or a tall/confident guy) vs a hot 29 year old? I know it’s tough to make generalities about how all “hot” girls of an age group think differently than the hot girls in another age group, but I definitely notice my female friends saying that they go much less for douchey guys now that they’re past 25.

Personalities definitely DO differ and the guy made little effort to get to know her/connect with her better, which is pretty awful, but I get the feeling this guy might have had an easier time if he tried picking up a 22 y/o marina hot girl vs a slightly older girl in her 20’s.

3 GK June 28, 2011 at 7:39 pm

Thanks, Alfonso!

Sal: Tre Tre can correct me, but I think he said she’s 27. I agree that girls do filter out the douches better after 25 — it’s one reason why 25 tends to be my minimum age for dating — but I doubt her age was a big factor in this case. There are plenty of chicks in the Marina over 25 who would have gone home with that guy on his status alone. This was simply a woman who stood out from the rest, and I suspect that’s why he tried so hard with her.

I should also point out that I dated a girl last year who was 24 and told me about rejecting similar advances by a pro athlete. So there’s hope for us even there.

4 Anonymous June 28, 2011 at 7:59 pm

sounds like the athlete had just finished reading “Why Looking for Interest is a Waste of Time”

5 scn June 28, 2011 at 8:07 pm

Great contrast of a master game player vs. an Average Frustrated Chump/Celebrity. And yes, I will say Tre Tre was running game.

Just because Tiger Woods doesn’t think about golf swing basics anymore and just goes with his gut when hitting the ball doesn’t mean he isn’t using and relying on the basic principles of golf just as much as a beginner who is consciously keeping them in mind.

Just because GK and Tre Tre have reached a state of unconscious competence at game doesn’t mean they aren’t playing game. And it doesn’t mean the rest of us, who are not at that level yet, should apishly shut our brains off when talking to women and expect any results better than disastrous.

Research shows it takes many thousands of hours of conscious, analytical, directed practice at something to become unconsciously good at it. Just ask Tiger.

6 Tre June 28, 2011 at 10:36 pm

scn, I think you and I are far more in agreement than you think. My last comment in the previous post more than details just how important I think establishing a foundation is. But the previous point about IOI’s is irrefutable. GK wasn’t throwing out the baby with the bathwater and many, many theories of game out there put far too much importance on IOI’s. But, let’s not talk about that as that isn’t the point. This isn’t binary: either you run game or you don’t. If you suck at it, learn game, but learn game with the hopes of moving beyond it (not throwing it out!).

You are totally right! I was running game on this lovely woman, but I wasn’t thinking about it. I was just having fun an interacting with someone I was genuinely attracted to and was flirting the whole time. I can honestly say that not a thought of “what should I say next” came into my mind.

One point I do disagree with, I think that running game and interacting with women is not even close to the difficult as being an elite PGA Golfer. The analogy about practice and application is apt, but you have a far lower bar to achieve. In fact, the beauty is ultimately in its simplicity. 1,000s of hours of conscious, analytical, directed practice isn’t required to find a cool chick to date.

FYI: Check out “The Inner Game of Tennis.” You have quite an analytical bent to you and I think you’d find it very enlightening.

:)

7 Tre June 28, 2011 at 10:52 pm

Sal/GK,

Yes, she was 27. Sal that was a great point. Also, said athlete had a ton of dipshit 22 year olds hanging on him, yet he kept trying to corale said 27 yr old. He obviously was interested in a girl that came across as confident and sure about what she wanted.

BTW, I must emphasize that I knew this girl previously. I knew her fairly well, so it wasn’t a cold call.

8 Pros June 29, 2011 at 9:15 am

What sport was the athlete from? I’m guessing Football.

Going back to a technique he definitley could have used was going back to the Big 4. He could have stated he was interested in talking to her and then got her logistics and found out she was out for a bday with friends. He could have said catch you later on and went about mingling with others. Perhaps the bday girl would become a bit more curious about him then. He could then periodically check in and see if she was up for talking later. Not pushy but creating curiosity for him. Don’t you think GK, TRE??

I think a big part of this was she was not giving him the attention and he was frustrated, not necessarily that he wanted her and had to have her!

9 Tre June 29, 2011 at 10:22 am

Pros. Awesome point. Displaying frustration to the girl you are trying to seduce is anti-seductive. It displays a rigidness that becomes very off-putting.

Seduction is ceremonial–what really works about it is the duration. Movies and plays would be pretty boring if the protagonist got what they wanted in the first 5 minutes of the film. Seduction is an opportunity to build anticipation and patience is key. Impatience reveals the persons vapid intentions and you quickly become like every other mindless idiot who comes up and wants to get her to sleep with him as quickly as possible.

Funny thing is, we are all insecure people our own ways. But, it takes an extraordinary person to accept their limitations and open up to a stranger. All women have some level of insecurity — as you provide a raft that momentarily frees her from her insecurity, you seduce her by pulling her out of her normal self-absorption.

I think this is what Wayne use to always refer to a vibe. You can have all the routines and algorithms of game down pat, but if your vibe is closed, impatient and insecure, all you are going to do is heighten her own insecurity.

10 scn June 29, 2011 at 11:22 am

Well said.

11 scn June 30, 2011 at 6:26 am

Tre Tre, on your earlier comment, thanks for pointing out the ways we do agree. I agree it isn’t binary, and I totally agree IOI’s are irrelevant.

I don’t agree with trying to “move beyond game” and shut off the brain. I instead strive to internalize the basics so I can turn my brain and conscious focus to advanced game skills.

I agree it’s crucial to develop emotional intelligence and intuition as much as a rational understanding of what to say and what to do. I think at any stage of mastery, further growth won’t happen if we are predominantly in our heads or predominantly in our hearts.

I think of seduction not as something that just happens or you just feel but as an artful skill (a skill involving emotion) that can be practiced. I think it’s instructive to follow the habits of people who master other artful skills like ballet, music, or sports. They often work on their skills as hard as they did when they were amateurs, analyzing the minutia of their technique and putting in thousands of hours of conscious, deliberate practice for every hour of unconscious performance/game time.

In seduction, we don’t have dedicated practice time. Our socializing time has to serve as both our practice and our game time. So no matter what level I am at, I aim to continuously improve using conscious, deliberate practice much of the time when I go out. I want to always keep building my emotional muscles and rational understanding of what makes girls tick.

12 Tre Tre June 30, 2011 at 10:22 am

scn

Again, I think we are closer than you might think and I believe that I’m not quite articulating my thoughts properly. I think there are infinite ways for one to go about seducing women or being social creatures. As you said, seduction is an art–everyone has to master the basics, but once those are down, there is a wide chasm between Dali, Michelangelo, Picasso and Duchamp. The art of seduction is really just a subset of the art of self-expression.

I’m no dating coach and don’t ever want to pretend to be one. But I do have friends that suck with women and, more often than not, they are too wrapped up in their heads to make anything work. For these poor souls, making it simple is the tonic that ails their pain. I’m not an advocate of shutting off your brain, but I am an advocate of eliminating overthinking and simplifying the superfluous.

Just a question so we can agree or I can understand your terminology better: in your view, what is advanced game? How do you characterize specifically how you go about a generic interaction?

I appreciate the chat, man. :)

13 scn June 30, 2011 at 8:57 pm

Tre Tre, I enjoy the back and forth too. The discussion helps me sort out my own thinking. It’s certainly possible I’m misinterpreting some of what you say.

Advanced game to me could mean girls with boyfriends who are present, hot girls attended by unfriendly guys within insular cliques at velvet-rope nightclubs, aloof supermodels with thick layers of hostile defenses, and of course threesomes.

I don’t have any fixed way I go about interactions. Generally speaking, I practice the same CA-style that GK does.

14 Tre July 1, 2011 at 9:32 am

scn

To me, those seem more like objectives or goals. To continue with our sports analogies, like a baseball player would say his goals are, win batting title, drive in 100 RBIs, win world series and win MVP.

The advanced game that I was thinking about had more to do with some of the techniques that you alluded to. Do you have any thoughts on what type of advanced game would need to be applied to those scenarios to make them work?

15 scn July 1, 2011 at 10:46 am

I see your point. As a guy still getting the basics under my belt, I don’t have a good understanding of the techniques needed to accomplish those more advanced goals.

For example though, Wayne teaches several techniques for handling hostile women that I consider advanced. One is to accept her hostility as an investment of energy into the interaction, react to it positively, and plow forward. Another is to accept criticism from her then move to another topic before reciprocating the criticism in order to show you are no pushover. Another is to finesse the interaction with pacing and conversational teasing so she becomes more interested in what you have to say than being hostile and drops her hostility. All these techniques are probably effective in certain circumstances if executed correctly. You’d have to talk to Wayne for elaboration, it’s more advanced technique than I’m tackling at this point.

My point is, even if the day comes when I’ve mastered all of the above, I wouldn’t rest on my laurels. There will always be harder challenges on the horizon with peculiar circumstances requiring ever more advanced techniques. For example, picking up an A-list celebrity at a public event or doing a sister threesome. I never see myself as “having arrived” and wanting to tune out, coast, and stop growing.

16 Erich July 1, 2011 at 5:46 pm

So, if Tre Tre had been in the athlete’s position would he have politely bowed out when she told him she wasn’t interested in going off with him? Maybe he would not have tried to isolate her in the first place.

I personally have had the feeling of not wanting to exit an approach even when she expressed being not interested, or it being a bad time, but I’ve usually had the good taste of respectfully exiting. That said (and I can’t come up with any examples), I seem to remember some guys advocating that if they just persist more (regardless of her objections), or crack that extra clever line she’ll eventually relent and allow you to continue. Maybe that can work at the expense of often times looking like a douche to women that really aren’t interested.

17 GK July 1, 2011 at 6:08 pm

Erich, I’ll let Tre answer your question. But this is one subject that I think has been distorted in those PUA field reports, where a guy brags about picking up a reluctant girl. He probably isn’t writing about the 30 other girls he pissed off by ignoring her plea to leave.

I wasn’t there, but if the athlete had the awareness to see that she wanted to focus on her party, he could have let her go but re-approached her later when her group had scattered a bit. That is basically what Tre did when he got one on one with her (though he was already part of her group). Of course, even then maybe she just wasn’t interested in the guy and it wouldn’t have mattered. When I say game is overrated, this is the kind of thing I’m talking about. If she doesn’t like you, no clever lines will help.

I’ll give a girl some time to warm up to me, but if she asks me to leave, I’ll leave. I believe in karma, and to me it’s not worth pissing off an entire bar in the hopes that maybe she’s just playing hard to get.

18 Pros July 1, 2011 at 11:02 pm

Well, the hostile techniques and clever lines may not matter, But going back to classic CA style. Why not acknowledge her situation (her birthday party) say a few charming things, sorta walk away because your actually busy doing other stuff, and try again. Build curiosity for her to open up to like you. Girls need time to get used to someone and open up.
By saying something funny and charming you show you don’t take her no seriously and you keep it fun. Maybe she has a friend. Thats what Wayne used to hammer away at. Acknowledge that you know her situation and are aware of it and she can be at ease and decide to continue or end it.

19 Pros July 1, 2011 at 11:14 pm

One of the most powerful Big four things I learned and use is letting girls/people that you know their situation and it won’t bother you if they have to go or leave it. Thats attractive.
“I see you are at your party and I also have to get back to my friends, but perhaps we may share a laugh later” From here she may leave it or may reengage.

20 scn July 11, 2011 at 6:19 am

P.S. I found this article I thought nicely captured the importance of deliberate practice for becoming good at meeting girls:

http://www.neilstrauss.com/the-game/talent-doesnt-matter

Note: You can read it via RSS to bypass the tacky requirement to set up an account on Neil Strauss’s site

21 Hill July 16, 2011 at 12:15 am

It’s awesome to hear that a normal guy beat out a star athlete here but we’r kiddin ourselves if we think that he went home alone tha night. I don’ think this is an issue of gme as much as a culture clash. If she had been a celebrity chaser or had a family that cared more about sports it might have been a different story. Or his dude could have played his cards like Tre Tre and still been rejected. There’s someone for everyone even clueless jocks.

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